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Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings (Read 8386 times)

Started by Nightwish, June 30, 2012, 08:03:48

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#1
Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings |
June 30, 2012, 08:03:48
The like system was one of the first features I implemented in EoS Alpha, inspired by a well known other forum product. It was simple and clean and worked well enough, but also very limited as one could only like a post and there was no way to rate it otherwise.

So here comes post rating. Basically, it works like the old "Likes", but with one significant difference:
Rating classes can be freely defined (up to 10), so for example, you could define the following ratings:
  • Like it
  • Dislike
  • Useful
  • Funny
  • Total crap
Each rating can have its own HTML formatting to make the rating bar and rating results appear a bit less boring. The rating results will appear below the post and will show how many each of the ratings had been given to that post.

Points system (aka Karma reloaded) (NOTE: currently not implemented, but soon).
Consequently, the post ratings can be used to accumulate points on a members account. Each rating a member receives for one of his posts can either add or subtract reputation points and this amount of points should be customizable by the administrator. Reputation points can then be used for various things like automatic group promotions, new member titles or other stuff. So these points are a bit like karma (which will be removed from EoS entirely) except that they are given for a post and the member can see (in his profile or by notifications) for which posts he received ratings.

Todo / planned / Maybes
Enforce limits on how many ratings a user can give within a specific time period to avoid "rate spamming". This options should be "per user group" and my current view on this is that there should be a pool of points a user can spend. The pool will refresh every x hours (or days, or whatever) and a user cannot spend more points than he's currently got in his points pool. A rating that adds +10 to a member's reputation will consequently withdraw 10 points from the pool - ratings that add negatively to a member's reputation may cost more points from the pool to avoid "hate ratings" :) A rating that does not modify a user's reputation will cost zero and such ratings will therefore be unlimited.

Permissions are another thing. Right now, there is only one board permission that dictates whether a member can rate at all. However, to avoid "conflicts", it should be possible to anonymize ratings that modify the reputation balance of a member. Members with insufficient permissions will only see what kind of ratings they got, but not who gave them.

Accumulated rating points for all posts of a topic could be used to determine the popularity or "quality" of a topic.
__
Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one instruction -- from which, by induction, one can deduce that every program can be reduced to a single instruction that doesn't work.
My SMF-based forum fork
3 Like It  | 2 Useful 
Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 08:41:38 by Nightwish
#2
Re: Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings |
June 30, 2012, 17:40:32
The like system was one of the first features I implemented in EoS Alpha, inspired by a well known other forum product. It was simple and clean and worked well enough, but also very limited as one could only like a post and there was no way to rate it otherwise.

It was nice though, simple and giving a possibility people seem to just... well, like.

May I ask, did this idea, to go towards a reputation system even, come from user feedback?

Quote
So here comes post rating. Basically, it works like the old "Likes", but with one significant difference:
Rating classes can be freely defined (up to 10), so for example, you could define the following ratings:
  • Like it
  • Dislike
  • Useful
  • Funny
  • Total crap
Each rating can have its own HTML formatting to make the rating bar and rating results appear a bit less boring. The rating results will appear below the post and will show how many each of the ratings had been given to that post.

IMHO, maybe 'like' and 'dislike' make sense, otherwise it's too custom and it's not even clear what is the difference between all options: 'I like it' and 'it's useful' and 'it's funny'. Respectively 'dislike' and 'total crap'.
I can see cases of 'funny', as I can see cases when you will 'agree' with a post, but it sure as hell isn't funny, and even 'useful' might be stretching it.
I just don't see however any good criterium to split them - not while keeping 'like' and 'dislike'.

I think the +1 of G+ was better on this in the end, as simple as it is: you can '+1' on a post you don't find funny, nor would you normally say you like it, but you do agree with, or take note of. (i.e. a problem, a sad story).

Quote
Points system (aka Karma reloaded) (NOTE: currently not implemented, but soon).
Consequently, the post ratings can be used to accumulate points on a members account. Each rating a member receives for one of his posts can either add or subtract reputation points and this amount of points should be customizable by the administrator. Reputation points can then be used for various things like automatic group promotions, new member titles or other stuff. So these points are a bit like karma (which will be removed from EoS entirely) except that they are given for a post and the member can see (in his profile or by notifications) for which posts he received ratings.

Todo / planned / Maybes
Enforce limits on how many ratings a user can give within a specific time period to avoid "rate spamming". This options should be "per user group" and my current view on this is that there should be a pool of points a user can spend. The pool will refresh every x hours (or days, or whatever) and a user cannot spend more points than he's currently got in his points pool. A rating that adds +10 to a member's reputation will consequently withdraw 10 points from the pool - ratings that add negatively to a member's reputation may cost more points from the pool to avoid "hate ratings" :) A rating that does not modify a user's reputation will cost zero and such ratings will therefore be unlimited.

Permissions are another thing. Right now, there is only one board permission that dictates whether a member can rate at all. However, to avoid "conflicts", it should be possible to anonymize ratings that modify the reputation balance of a member. Members with insufficient permissions will only see what kind of ratings they got, but not who gave them.

Accumulated rating points for all posts of a topic could be used to determine the popularity or "quality" of a topic.

Heh. :)

I could have bet the temptation of a real reputation system is there, in the small 'like' offered to people. :)
I'm interested to see how this will play out.

karma (which will be removed from EoS entirely)

Good to see. I don't think there's much hope for karma - that is, too much targeting rating people and not content. I'm thinking to remove it from SMF 3.0 core. (let it as plugin).
Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 17:45:18 by Norv
#3
Re: Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings |
June 30, 2012, 17:56:19
IMHO, maybe 'like' and 'dislike' make sense, otherwise it's too custom and it's not even clear what is the difference between all options: 'I like it' and 'it's useful' and 'it's funny'. Respectively 'dislike' and 'total crap'.
I can see cases of 'funny', as I can see cases when you will 'agree' with a post, but it sure as hell isn't funny, and even 'useful' might be stretching it.
I just don't see however any good criterium to split them - not while keeping 'like' and 'dislike'.

I think the +1 of G+ was better on this in the end, as simple as it is: you can '+1' on a post you don't find funny, nor would you normally say you like it, but you do agree with, or take note of. (i.e. a problem, a sad story).

I think it really depends on what the forum is about, and they are fully customizable so it's not about the like or dislike per se. If you have specialized forums where one thread is usually a release, an idea, a piece of art or news, or something like that, this can be useful - especially in combination with special postbit templates. Think deviantart.

That said, I think an option to restrict which of the "thoughts"  can be given where would be very useful, like per membergroup, per forum, "first post only" or for specific postbit templates (which would implicitly include forum or first post only, if I'm not mistaken)
Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 17:59:48 by Valodim
#4
Re: Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings |
June 30, 2012, 18:02:43
It was nice though, simple and giving a possibility people seem to just... well, like.

May I ask, did this idea, to go towards a reputation system even, come from user feedback?
Nope, since I have little to none user feedback yet as there are no installations of EoS that I know of (except this one) :)

The idea was basically born after reading a lot of opinions in a couple of different communities (yes, including the forum at sm.org) about the usefulness of a simple "like system" in a forum software.

The general opinion is that it's too limited and there should be at least a "Dislike" option. So, why make it static with just another 2nd option when you can have more than that (with little additional effort).
Quote
IMHO, maybe 'like' and 'dislike' make sense, otherwise it's too custom and it's not even clear what is the difference between all options: 'I like it' and 'it's useful' and 'it's funny'. Respectively 'dislike' and 'total crap'.
I can see cases of 'funny', as I can see cases when you will 'agree' with a post, but it sure as hell isn't funny, and even 'useful' might be stretching it.
Well, that was just a stupid example. Basically, I would split ratings in two different types:
  • Pure fun ratings (like "Lol" or "Funny" or just "Thanks") that would normally not have any impact on reputation and are for entertainment purpose only.
  • More serious ratings like "Excellent", "Informational", "Useful" or "Poor" - ratings that would actually modify the reputation balance.
Or any mix of it - it's the admin's choice, though I agree that a wild mix wouldn't always make sense. Again, the admin should be able to decide.
Quote
I could have bet the temptation of a real reputation system is there, in the small 'like' offered to people. :)
Well, if you want it to be a simple like system, then it will be one. Or a simple like/dislike system. The point is that it *can* be more than that if you wish.
Quote
Good to see. I don't think there's much hope for karma - that is, too much targeting rating people and not content. I'm thinking to remove it from SMF 3.0.
It's too limited imho and a lot of people don't even understand how it works and how to use it. Ratings, on the other side, are popular and well understood since they are basically everywhere.

Also, getting positive (or negative) reputation from posts one made makes more sense in my opinion. I know a few forums where the reputation level of a user does indeed indicate a person who normally posts good stuff, so if it comes from someone with a high rep level, it's usually a good read. It depends on the community though and it is important to prevent abuse like hate ratings or rating wars. That's why I came up with the ideas of a points pool and a permission system that prevents members from seeing who rated their posts.
__
Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one instruction -- from which, by induction, one can deduce that every program can be reduced to a single instruction that doesn't work.
My SMF-based forum fork
#5
Re: Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings |
June 30, 2012, 18:09:07
That said, I think an option to restrict which of the "thoughts"  can be given where would be very useful, like per membergroup, per forum, "first post only" or for specific postbit templates (which would implicitly include forum or first post only, if I'm not mistaken)
Topic prefixes come to mind :)

For example, the first post of a topic could get additional rating options based on the topic prefix. So a topic prefixed with "Review" could have different ratings than a topic prefixed with "Request". Followup posts would only allow standard ratings.
__
Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one instruction -- from which, by induction, one can deduce that every program can be reduced to a single instruction that doesn't work.
My SMF-based forum fork
#6
Re: Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings |
June 30, 2012, 19:15:33
I'd have a quick question here, if I may.
(will come back on the rest a bit later)

It was nice though, simple and giving a possibility people seem to just... well, like.

May I ask, did this idea, to go towards a reputation system even, come from user feedback?
Nope, since I have little to none user feedback yet as there are no installations of EoS that I know of (except this one) :)

The idea was basically born after reading a lot of opinions in a couple of different communities (yes, including the forum at sm.org) about the usefulness of a simple "like system" in a forum software.

The general opinion is that it's too limited and there should be at least a "Dislike" option. So, why make it static with just another 2nd option when you can have more than that (with little additional effort).

Why do you think social networks didn't come up with a 'dislike', or negative rating? Only the possibility to remove one's 'like' or '+1' or whatever they name it. Or, does any?

Not trying to imply (well, not very strongly) that they should. However, there may be a difference of interest here.
#7
Re: Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings |
June 30, 2012, 19:28:18
Keep in mind you are at most discussing the default "thought" settings here, it's not like the thoughts themselves hold any semantics in the system like, for instance, negative karma does.
#8
Re: Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings |
June 30, 2012, 19:45:24
I didn't say anything about karma.

It's a question unrelated even to points used in a reputation system, nor karma. If a 'Dislike' is missed, apart from 'like', for forums, it's missed for a reason; and it IS negative.

I was answering to this:
Quote
The general opinion is that it's too limited and there should be at least a "Dislike" option.

I am wondering why it would be missed for forums, and not for social networks - simply as brainstorming.
1 Like It 
#9
Re: Likes reloaded or welcome post ratings |
July 01, 2012, 07:38:38
Why do you think social networks didn't come up with a 'dislike', or negative rating? Only the possibility to remove one's 'like' or '+1' or whatever they name it. Or, does any?
I do believe, they don't even want people to negatively rate content, simply because it is unattractive to have content that gets more dislike than like ratings.

However, negative ratings are not that uncommon. On youtube, you can still dislike a video and there are other sites like the entire family of stackoverflow.com where up/down ratings can be *very* useful, AND there are quite a lot of people who believe that a -1 (for google) or "dislike" for facebook is strongly needed. However, neither google nor facebook can have an interest in giving people the ability to "downrate" content and given the number of users they have, there is absolutely NO way to moderate or control such a feature.
__
Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one instruction -- from which, by induction, one can deduce that every program can be reduced to a single instruction that doesn't work.
My SMF-based forum fork
2 Like It